I have recently been sent some images of a notebook that was written by A. G. Taylor who also kept other notebooks that are in the possession of AVFC.
Taylor was a leading and respected Midlands sportswriter since the 1880s, for Sport and Play and (after it started in 1897) the Sports Argus.
In the pages I've received, Taylor states that the Villa were formed in October, 1874. He infers that the Villa first played knockabouts that first month on their first ground - at Westminster Road - so these rough (practise?) games would not have been reported by the press. But he also infers that the first proper match was played vs St. Mary's in November, in which (Taylor states) Will Such scored Villa's winning goal, not Jack Hughes. So whether this is another match than the one Jack Hughes referred to I have no idea. And, of course, Taylor may not have the facts right about that.
I am not sure he (Taylor) was around when Villa first started playing so perhaps would not know at first hand whether this was so. Taylor first wrote for the Sport and Play journal, but that did not get off the ground until the late 1870s, and there was only a small amount of press coverage before that.
Though I remain very unsure that Jack Hughes was correct in his 'March, 1874' as the big date (and he is first recorded as having said this in 1899, the 25th anniversary of Villa's foundation), the trouble is that he was better qualified than many to state a date since he (Hughes) was a member of the original team - and no other player of that period seems to have argued with him!
However, Billy Mason had died before 1899 and several others had migrated overseas. Perhaps Hughes was virtually the only one of the original team left at home and had no-one else around to argue with him - and there were no androids to hand in those days!
Be that as it may, I feel that October is the correct month of the Villa's foundation, but there's still no total proof of that as far as I can see. It may be that total proof will never be found.
UTV!
Taylor was a leading and respected Midlands sportswriter since the 1880s, for Sport and Play and (after it started in 1897) the Sports Argus.
In the pages I've received, Taylor states that the Villa were formed in October, 1874. He infers that the Villa first played knockabouts that first month on their first ground - at Westminster Road - so these rough (practise?) games would not have been reported by the press. But he also infers that the first proper match was played vs St. Mary's in November, in which (Taylor states) Will Such scored Villa's winning goal, not Jack Hughes. So whether this is another match than the one Jack Hughes referred to I have no idea. And, of course, Taylor may not have the facts right about that.
I am not sure he (Taylor) was around when Villa first started playing so perhaps would not know at first hand whether this was so. Taylor first wrote for the Sport and Play journal, but that did not get off the ground until the late 1870s, and there was only a small amount of press coverage before that.
Though I remain very unsure that Jack Hughes was correct in his 'March, 1874' as the big date (and he is first recorded as having said this in 1899, the 25th anniversary of Villa's foundation), the trouble is that he was better qualified than many to state a date since he (Hughes) was a member of the original team - and no other player of that period seems to have argued with him!
However, Billy Mason had died before 1899 and several others had migrated overseas. Perhaps Hughes was virtually the only one of the original team left at home and had no-one else around to argue with him - and there were no androids to hand in those days!
Be that as it may, I feel that October is the correct month of the Villa's foundation, but there's still no total proof of that as far as I can see. It may be that total proof will never be found.
UTV!
5 comments:
If October is the most likely month in which the young men decided to play a winter sport then surely the 21 November 1874 is the most likely date on which the four 'founders' met and made their decision to recommend soccer after having seen the Mason rugby match.
There is additional evidence to support this which I have not read about. I offer it here. Accept my apologies if it is already known. Amateur football games played in the afternoon nearly always have a kick off time of 14:00. This I assume was as true in 1874 as it is today. Sunset for the 21 November 1874 in Birmingham was 16:06. We can safely assume that the Saturday rugby game was played in the afternoon and that the founders arrived at a gas lamp that was lit. If the rugby game had been played on a Saturday afternoon in March 1874, as has been suggested, then the earliest Saturday sunset time is 17:57; the lamp would not have been lit and Jack’s above comment does not make sense. The sunset time for the earliest Saturday in February that year is 17:05; once again, assuming a 14:00 KO time, the four would have reached Villa Cross in daylight.
Bum! It appears in those early days even in deepest winter the KO time could be 15:00 or later. Often they just played until bad light stopped play. This makes the above less important if not irrelevant.
Hello David - sorry for my delayed response to your comments.
Yes, I do know about the Nov 21 date for the occasion you state, and that may well be correct. My argument is that it has been stated that by Rob Bishop and Frank Holt that that date appears to be the foundation date, but I argue that is by no means to be taken as fact. October remains, for me, the most likely - but it's a quibble, really, as we're talking of about 6 weeks' difference. I have pointed all this out to Rob and Frank.
It is also true that back then k,o, times were often 2pm or 2:30 in mid-winter, but one of the big problems was that away teams would often turn up late, so the match would finish later than intended.
Cheers,
John
Hi John
Thanks for replying
I cannot fault your logic, and find the new detail fascinating.
Somewhere, out there, in the claret and blue yonder, there may be the missing piece of the jigsaw that allows us to be more certain.
Hard result to take, yesterday.
UTV
David
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