Very recent research (by myself and others) in some ways corrects a statement that I made in The Villa Chronicles. What actually happened according to Jack Hughes (a founding father) in a newspaper article at the time of the club's Golden Anniversary in early March, 1924, is that in February of 1874, four members of the cricket club went to see a rugby match at Heathfield Road, Handsworth. The competing teams were the Handsworth Rugby Club and the Grasshoppers of Adderley. [Billy] Mason was then playing for the Grasshoppers and the cricketers were anxious to see what the game of rugby was like. After its finish they met in conference under the glimmer of a gaslamp at Villa Cross.
Further, it seems that this gaslamp meeting merely determined that rugby was too rough a game and that football (soccer) was the option that should be recommended. Again according to Hughes, in the first week of March, these four and eleven others of the Aston Villa Wesleyan Bible Class met and agreed that football was to be their game and that is when the club was formed. These 15 (it might have been 16) then each contributed to a pool so that they could acquire their first football. By the way, Hughes stressed in his article that all members should be credited with the founding of the club, and not merely the four that met under the gas lamp.
However, on page 10 of the new 'Complete Record' it states that "the most probable date for that momentous [under the street lamp] meeting was 21 November 1874." The Complete Record does not provide its authority for that statement, but I believe the basis for that asserion is because it was reported back then that there was a rugby match between Handsworth Rugby Club and the Grasshoppers on that day, and it has been assumed that this is the match that was witnessed as described in the opening paragraph above. But it's quite possible there was a corresponding (and not reported) match that took place in February, 1874.
Of course, It seems fairly clear now that the famous "first" game against St. Mary's was not, in fact, Villa's first game, but the first game that Villa won! That match seems to be the one reported in the press in March, 1875 and which describes the events of that match just as they have since been handed down from Hughes onwards. It seems therefore that all Hughes' assertions are not credible.
But we have another problem. In my deep researches into the club's foundation at the British Library, I found two newspaper references of the 1894-1904 period that assert that Aston Villa was founded in October, 1874. And, not only that, but the Villa archives includes a diary of an old sports reporter that states the very same foundation date - October, 1874.
The very fact that these non-proven argumentations exist caused me (in The Villa Chronicles) to be non-committed to the actual foundation date. But what I will state is that the fact is that at the time of the Golden Anniversary in 1924 there were still a number of Villa people alive who were around in 1874 and do not seem to have queried the March founding month, which seems to have been universally accepted by then.
It's therefore strange in some ways that in recent years there's been a questioning of when the Villa were actually formed and to the extent of denying the March date. Without convincing proof, I think the March 1874 date should stand; it may be wrong but we cannot yet state for absolute certainty that it is wrong.
5 comments:
Thanks for the update. Fascinating! I have always loved the founders lamp story and really hope that one day we'll have definite proof of the date when our four 'founders' stopped under a gas lamp at the top of Heathfield Road at Villa Cross to agree on the code of football to recommend. Now there are two photographs of the Villa Cross Inn taken near to the great year of 1874. One is of the Inn when managed by John Ogden. His name is clearly displayed on the frontage. But he did not become manager until 1894. The other photo is c1890 but it must have been before 1894 because John Ogden is not displayed and there is no street lamp in front of the Inn, whereas there is one on the John Ogden photo. It is probable that one of the gas lamps shown on this earlier photo is THE lamp. If the gas lamp was a street lamp then it may be the one shown at the top of Heathfield Road, at Villa Cross, on the right hand side by the premises of W. Graham & Son, dealers in tea and coffee. However, the Villa Inn has its own private gas lamp attached to its wall at Villa Cross. I like to think, though, that the four founders, being good Methodists would have stopped at the street lamp. And if they did, then it is very likely that this is a photo of THE lamp. What do you think? I get chills just thinking about it. Did John Hughes state a 'gas lamp' or a 'street lamp'? In those days did people call a street lamp, a gas lamp? Whatever the truth is we do have a great photo of Villa Cross taken perhaps only ten years after the great day.
Whoops! I've just checked the map again. Heathfield Road is on the left of the Villa Inn as you look at the photograph. The street lamp at the top of Heathfield Road, at Villa Cross, is clearly shown on the left foreground. Chills! What do yo reckon? Is this it?
https://www.search.birminghamimages.org.uk/details.aspx?&ResourceID=862&SearchType=2&ThemeID=527
Well this is a learning curve. Have just read the relevant part of the Sports Argus article about the four meeting "in conference under the glimmer of a gas lamp at Aston Cross." The reporter got that wrong I am told. All the other accounts mention Villa Cross. But there's no mention of Heathfield Road for the lamp. It's a lamp at Villa Cross. How come so many accounts talk about a lamp on Heathfield road? Where does that come from? This is so annoying.
David, "Heathfield Road" was mentioned by Jack Hughes (a club founder) in 1899, if not before. The term "Villa Cross" is used loosely i.m.o., and that was the later name of that sub-district anyway. Previously the area was known as "Aston Villa". Cheers, John
Hi John,
Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. You must excuse my lack of knowledge at the start of this quest. I have now read the Sunday Mercury and Sports Argus accounts from John 'Jack' Hughes.
I agree with you about the different ways people used the phrase Villa Cross. Sometimes the phrase referred to the shops there. (As I child, when I said I was going to the Fox and Goose I didn't mean I was having a pint of larger) Sometimes the phrase meant the crossroads as in, "I'll meet you at Villa Cross." And of course one could say I'll meet you in the Villa Cross.
Anyway, here's my thinking at the moment based on three pieces of information.
Trevor Fisher gave a talk at the central library 10 4 2012. (After the crowds have gone | Trevor Fisher ). He stated that Jack Hughes, one of the four founders, wrote in the Sunday Mercury, 9th March 1924: “The ‘committee of inspection’- Price, Matthews, Scattergood and myself – adjourned from the Rugby match to the top of Heathfield Road and there, in the dim light of the lamp, we held a conference”.
Jack Hughes gave a talk to the Old Villans Society on Monday 4 December 1899. It was reported in the Sports Argus later that week that the four founders "met in conference under the glimmer of a lamp at Aston Cross." As you have pointed out, the reporter had made a careless mistake - he should have written Villa Cross.
Bernard Gallagher ( Author of the excellent blogg Updates | claret and blue | AN ASTON VILLA SCRAPBOOK ) emailed me: "As for standing under a lamp-post after watching the Handsworth v Grasshoppers match, you have to imagine that this was a departure point for the four young men making their way home. Hughes didn’t live too far from there in Little Hunters Lane. As for the rest of the “committee of inspection”, the Matthews family lived in Villa Road, Price in Wheeler Street, and Scattergood in Burbury Street, Lozells."
Putting these three accounts together, I believe the four walked up Heathfield Road discussing the relative merits of rugger and soccer. They had to decide which would best suit the majority of the fifteen members of the Young Men's Bible Study Group. When they got to the top of Heathfield Road opposite the crossroads (Villa Cross) they still hadn't decided. Now, as Villa Cross was the place where the group would separate they stopped under the gas light there (at the top of Heathfield Road), talked some more, and eventually made the decision that continues to enrich the lives of so many.
Now if this is a correct understanding of the event then there is the possibility that we have a photograph which shows the original Founders Lamp.
On this photograph there is only one lamp post at the top of Heathfield Road. It is opposite the cross roads. If that lamp was there in 1874 then it must almost certainly be the original AVFC's Founders' Lamp.
https://www.search.birminghamimages.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=862&SearchType=2&ThemeID=527
The photo is dated 1890 on the link and closely matches the ordinance survey map of 1888 for the area. It is a detailed map and has the lamp posts marked. Comparing the tramway lay out on the photo and map we can date the photo between 1874 and 1885. Handsworth Historical society have very kindly agreed to use their expertise to date the photo as accurately as possible. Whether they will use the Aston Manor and Handsworth records in Birmingham Library to date the erection of the lamp in question I do not know yet. But of course that will have to be done at some stage.
I can't understand why Simon Inglis wrote "somewhere along Heathfield Road." It's the top of Heathfield, at Villa Cross, where the lamp is.
Anyway, thanks again for replying. And thanks for your blogg. I like the way you add all the new details you find out and how you make even-handed judgements.
All the best and stay safe
David
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